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Post by pakman on Jul 12, 2014 21:32:42 GMT -5
I don't think we've had a topic on this before, but I know we've discussed it at various times throughout this forum and the previous forum's life.
Looking at AMW's Direct Capture list, it's something to be proud of. After all, the show has captured more than 1,200 fugitives over the years.
And yet, one has to wonder if that number should be higher.
Especially in AMW's later years, there were a ton of inconsistencies with captures that sounded like they were direct but were marked as indirect.
For example, we're all very well aware of the fact that Tina Loesch and Skye Hanson were both marked as indirect, even though both committed suicide the night of their broadcast and neither had been heard from in about 10 years. Clearly AMW was the reason the pair committed suicide, and yet the show never acknowledged this.
Jerome Handy is another example. He had drowned in a pool and was going to be buried under his alias. However, someone called in saying the dead man was Handy, and thanks to that info, investigators were able to identify Handy as the man. Keep in mind this was the exact same way Esat Bici (Capture #723) was identified. So why was he marked as direct, yet Handy wasn't?
Then there's Calvin Inswood, who was given a brief profile in November 2003. Every article I could find credited AMW with the fugitive's capture, yet the show never added his profile and never took credit for the capture. Inswood was never uploaded following the website's makeover in 2004. This had happened with other fugitives not on the site before (Gerardo Martinez, Kit Kar Luong, Desiree Lingo-Perkins, etc.) so why was Inswood ignored?
Finally, Nai Yin Xue. AMW tips were right behind him, and as a result of the publicity, a newspaper in Mississippi published a story about the fugitive. A group of men who read the newspaper article recognized Xue, called the police and hogtied him until officers could arrive. Normally I wouldn't be upset about Xue not being counted as direct, except for the fact that Fu Wang was captured under the EXACT SAME CIRCUMSTANCES. I'm not even kidding; I just read Wang's archived capture report and it said as a result of the publicity generated by AMW, he was caught. Wang was also captured (I think) shortly after Xue.
And occasionally, you'll also get a direct capture that has no evidence that an AMW tip led to their capture, yet the show still takes credit for them. The best example of this is Kenneth Freeman. There is no indication that an AMW tipster spotted him in Hong Kong and then dropped a dime on him. Yet, Freeman is marked as Capture #939. My theory behind this? It was because of an AMW tipster that investigators discovered that Kylie Freeman was the little girl being victimized in all those child pornography videos. As a result of that, the US Marshals added Freeman to their 15 Most Wanted List, and the Marshals were the ones that tracked Freeman down in Hong Kong. If AMW had never aired Freeman's case, Kylie would never have been ID'D as the victim in those videos. If that had never happened, the US Marshals would never have gotten involved, which, in turn, would never have led to Freeman's capture. Complicated? Yes, but that's the only reason I can think of as to why Freeman is a direct capture.
I remember in 2011, after Derrick Best was captured and all the media outlets were claiming AMW had caught him, I actually sent a tweet to Steve Katz asking if Best was going to be marked as direct. His response intrigued me; he said they were not because it was "convoluted" and instead they were just calling it an AMW assist. I'm still not entirely sure what he meant by that.
Can anybody else think of any bizarre direct capture moments?
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Post by 912thamwuser on Jul 13, 2014 2:56:38 GMT -5
Eric George McNeill was a mass child rapist either wanted out of, or busted in, Arizona, and was caught around the turn of October 2012. Everything indicated he should've been a direct capture between Jonathan Jamel May (#1197) and Mario Hernandez (#1198), but then they went and declared him an empty capture.
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Post by Scumhunter on Jul 13, 2014 16:36:20 GMT -5
Quan Lam was also captured the same way as Xue. It's really bizarre how AMW counts some with a weird correlation and doesn't count others. Perhaps that's why John Walsh says the number is 1231 as opposed to the 1204 the last time they updated- perhaps it really is!
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Post by ninja108 on Apr 14, 2019 1:46:40 GMT -5
When I think of capture conundrums, I think of AMW Capture #696 Guierrin "Gary" Saintio. You read the capture report on him (via internet wayback) and it's made clear that while Marshals are the ones who ultimately caught him,they wouldn't have gotten on his trail if not for AMW viewers. And yet other captures with similar circumstances never got a capture number.
Juan Ramirez(you can find his case on vimeo) was wanted for the Christmas Day murder of his ex-girlfriend in North Carolina. After AMW first aired his case,tipsters led the U.S. Marshals to the New Jersey/New York area where they just missed him but they were able to in time track him to Arizona based on information and informants they were able to get because of AMW. Several articles(including one where a marshal credits AMW) state his capture wouldn't have been possible without AMW yet he was marked as indirect.
AMW #Capture 1084 Shannon Lee McLaughlin is another case. He was busted by an AMW tipster who saw the story of him and his wife Indigo McLaughlin and how they tried to entice a 14 year old girl into a sexual relationship with them. Inidgo wasn't at home at the time her husband was busted and went on the run for a few more days. When she was caught,it was marked as an indirect capture because a viewer tip/website visitor didn't bust her even though media articles and AMW.com itself all made clear police wouldn't have been able to track her down if not for her husband getting busted as a result of AMW.
And finally,there is David Robbins in 2011. He was wanted out of Alaska for sexually abusing two girls and when AMW profiled him, AMW viewers led police to where he had been hiding but they missed him yet were able to track him down anyway based on the information they gathered from their near miss,which wouldn't have happened at all if not for AMW. I just don't get how Saintio was a direct result while other captures similar to his weren't.
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Post by pakman on Apr 14, 2019 6:09:14 GMT -5
I can't remember his name, but shortly before AMW was canceled in 2011, there was a fugitive caught that the media credited to AMW, but the show never took credit for it. I actually tweeted to Steve Katz (the show's co-executive producer) to ask him about it, and his reply was something to the effect of, "It's kind of complicated, so we're not counting him as a direct." He never elaborated more than that, but it's really left me wondering what on earth he meant by that. It seems pretty simple to me that if an AMW tip leads to a fugitive, they're a direct capture.
I think AMW changed the definition of "direct" during their last few years on FOX. It seemed to me that if a tip lead DIRECTLY to a fugitive, they counted it as direct. But if the police had to do additional work, they didn't count it as direct. I'm looking specifically at Shannon McLaughlin (who was direct) and Indigo McLaughlin (who wasn't). The tip led to where they were living, but only Shannon was there. If I recall, Shannon gave up where Indigo was, and then police nabbed her. But because of that extra step, she wasn't considered direct.
Another example is the capture of Danny Moran and the recovery of Rebecca Braun. Moran is a direct capture, but Rebecca was never considered a direct recovery. Again, it's the same situation as above; Moran was home, Rebecca wasn't. Police needed to take an extra step to find her.
And since you mentioned David Robbins, who was the 50/50 fugitive from Alaska, I'd like to mention Wayne Zeller, who was the 50/50 fugitive from Wyoming. The very night of his broadcast, he surrendered. If I recall, he'd been a fugitive sine 2002 or so, and yet suddenly in 2011, the night of his profile, he surrenders? And that has nothing to do with AMW? They counted Martin Bulichi as a direct capture - he surrendered a day or two before AMW profiled him - even though he flat-out said the show had nothing to do with his surrender. One of the investigators believed he'd seen a news report that he was going to be profiled and turned himself in. And there's precedent for that being counted as direct, too! Shawn Windsor was broadcast on a local news report after his car was found abandoned and a woman who remembered she'd seen Windsor on AMW called the police after the news report jogged her memory. THAT was a direct capture!
Here's my question; who on the show decided whether it was direct or not? Somebody on the show's staff had to have the final say. I have a feeling it was Steve Katz. I can't prove it, but all these weird capture conundrums seemingly started to appear around 2006/2007, and I believe that's when he became co-executive producer (replacing Phil Lerman).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2019 11:33:50 GMT -5
I don't know why I thought it up but doesn't Terrance Washington fall into the category of AMW Conundrums? I ask this because isn't a conundrum sort of fitting under the category of 'irony' ? I mean Washington was profiled on the show and then when being transported to a Maryland hospital he broke out of a prison transport van and then AMW had to profile him all over again? ? Also I know how AMW keeps the captured/captures scores on the AMW scoreboard? Well (now this may sound kinda confusing...) but when Washington was nabbed for the 1st time and he was given a capture number and then he broke out and then aired again was he still given the original capture number he was given the first time was he labeled the same exact capture number or was he given a NEW capture number when he was nabbed for the 2nd time?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2019 14:15:54 GMT -5
I don't know why I thought it up but doesn't Terrance Washington fall into the category of AMW Conundrums? I ask this because isn't a conundrum sort of fitting under the category of 'irony' ? I mean Washington was profiled on the show and then when being transported to a Maryland hospital he broke out of a prison transport van and then AMW had to profile him all over again? ? Also I know how AMW keeps the captured/captures scores on the AMW scoreboard? Well (now this may sound kinda confusing...) but when Washington was nabbed for the 1st time and he was given a capture number and then he broke out and then aired again was he still given the original capture number he was given the first time was he labeled the same exact capture number or was he given a NEW capture number when he was nabbed for the 2nd time? Plus there is also that of (who I just remembered) Anthony 'Tony' Artrip.
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Post by pakman on Apr 14, 2019 22:24:39 GMT -5
Also I know how AMW keeps the captured/captures scores on the AMW scoreboard? Well (now this may sound kinda confusing...) but when Washington was nabbed for the 1st time and he was given a capture number and then he broke out and then aired again was he still given the original capture number he was given the first time was he labeled the same exact capture number or was he given a NEW capture number when he was nabbed for the 2nd time? Washington was never listed as direct.
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Post by pakman on Aug 30, 2020 20:22:05 GMT -5
I found another one! Yesterday I was watching a Dateline episode on Mark Weinberger, an ENT doctor from Indiana wanted for misdiagnosing and overcharging patients, including a woman with Stage 4 throat cancer that he performed unnecessary surgery on. Weinberger was caught towards the end of 2009 and was always listed as indirect. However, according to Dateline, Weinberger was brought to Italian police's attention because an acquaintance of his girlfriend's had contacted her and said, "I think your boyfriend Mark is hiding a secret," and showed her Weinberger's profile from amw.com. This is what led the girlfriend to come forward and alert police to where he was. I mean...this sounds like a direct capture to me. Why AMW didn't count it as such, I'll never know. They even showed a clip from the AMW episode on the show!
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Post by Scumhunter on Aug 30, 2020 22:32:29 GMT -5
Oh I always thought the wife or girlfriend he abandoned got a tip or something and then alerted authorities but if it went down that way should have been a direct capture.
We always (lovingly) make fun of John for overstating AMW's number of direct captures bit in fairness to him maybe it really would be over 1400 if they were allowed to take credit lol. (I also hear over the years many suspects turned themselves in upon even hearing they might be on AMW).
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Post by ninja108 on Aug 30, 2020 23:12:16 GMT -5
I found another one! Yesterday I was watching a Dateline episode on Mark Weinberger, an ENT doctor from Indiana wanted for misdiagnosing and overcharging patients, including a woman with Stage 4 throat cancer that he performed unnecessary surgery on. Weinberger was caught towards the end of 2009 and was always listed as indirect. However, according to Dateline, Weinberger was brought to Italian police's attention because an acquaintance of his girlfriend's had contacted her and said, "I think your boyfriend Mark is hiding a secret," and showed her Weinberger's profile from amw.com. This is what led the girlfriend to come forward and alert police to where he was. I mean...this sounds like a direct capture to me. Why AMW didn't count it as such, I'll never know. They even showed a clip from the AMW episode on the show! IMO,when Phil Lerman was replaced by Steve Katz,the criteria for a direct capture become a lot more stringent. If the police had to do any extra legwork,it wasn't a direct capture,even if the only reason the police were on the trail of a fugitive was because of the info AMW gave them. Weinberger is another example to throw on the pile. IMO,AMW wouldn't have had to add captures from nearly a decade ago(the last two members of the Texas Seven and the railroad killer)if the old standards had been kept in place. Then again,the last two members of the Texas 7 and the Railroad killer should have been counted direct captures at the time too.
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Post by ninja108 on Aug 30, 2020 23:21:44 GMT -5
Oh I always thought the wife or girlfriend he abandoned got a tip or something and then alerted authorities but if it went down that way should have been a direct capture. We always (lovingly) make fun of John for overstating AMW's number of direct captures bit in fairness to him maybe it really would be over 1400 if they were allowed to take credit lol. (I also hear over the years many suspects turned themselves in upon even hearing they might be on AMW). IMO,John's number is likely the more accurate one.
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Post by Scumhunter on Aug 30, 2020 23:41:32 GMT -5
Yeah but the capture counter only credited them for 1204 before their Lifetime cancelation. So the official number is below that but they deserve more unofficially
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Post by pakman on Aug 31, 2020 7:17:37 GMT -5
I found another one! Yesterday I was watching a Dateline episode on Mark Weinberger, an ENT doctor from Indiana wanted for misdiagnosing and overcharging patients, including a woman with Stage 4 throat cancer that he performed unnecessary surgery on. Weinberger was caught towards the end of 2009 and was always listed as indirect. However, according to Dateline, Weinberger was brought to Italian police's attention because an acquaintance of his girlfriend's had contacted her and said, "I think your boyfriend Mark is hiding a secret," and showed her Weinberger's profile from amw.com. This is what led the girlfriend to come forward and alert police to where he was. I mean...this sounds like a direct capture to me. Why AMW didn't count it as such, I'll never know. They even showed a clip from the AMW episode on the show! IMO,when Phil Lerman was replaced by Steve Katz,the criteria for a direct capture become a lot more stringent. If the police had to do any extra legwork,it wasn't a direct capture,even if the only reason the police were on the trail of a fugitive was because of the info AMW gave them.
That's definitely my line of thought, personally. I'm still looking to see when Steve Katz took over for Phil Lerman - I think it was 2006 but I'd have to double-check - but circumstantial evidence seems to suggest this.
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Post by pakman on Aug 31, 2020 7:26:39 GMT -5
Oh I always thought the wife or girlfriend he abandoned got a tip or something and then alerted authorities but if it went down that way should have been a direct capture. We always (lovingly) make fun of John for overstating AMW's number of direct captures bit in fairness to him maybe it really would be over 1400 if they were allowed to take credit lol. (I also hear over the years many suspects turned themselves in upon even hearing they might be on AMW).
Yeah, and those were usually counted as direct captures, too. Just looking at the capture archives, Joseph Safrany (#722), Prescott Sigmund (#728), Guillermo Del Prado (#739), Duane Brown (#751), Thomas Evered (#780), Gianni Gugliatto (#781), Angel Aguayo (#784) and Shawn Bovee (#792) all surrendered due to pressure from AMW and were counted as directs. And that's not even counting longtime AMW fugitive Chaka Raysor (#899) and mobster Nick Corozzo (#1,014).
Excluding the captures after AMW was canceled (there's at least 3-4 I can think of, but let's ignore those for a second) there are at least 12 fugitives mentioned in this thread who should have been marked as directs but weren't. That means, although the counter never reflected it, AMW has probably caught around 1,216 fugitives.
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